Bob  0:00  
It's our pleasure to talk with Kimm Burger from the KB Law Office here in Hillsdale. And Kimm, October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month, and it just seems that more and more recently, we hear on WCSR, we're seeing the papers here and other reports of more and more domestic violence. And I don't know if it has anything to do with everybody being cooped up during COVID or that domestic violence is something that, unfortunately, doesn't seem like it's going to go away anytime soon. 

Kimm  0:25  
No, it's just something that we don't really talk about, the families don't talk about. So that's part of the problem that we have when you talk about this violence within your family. 

Bob  0:35  
So what constitutes domestic violence? Is it slapping somebody around? Is it punching? Is it physical? Or does it constitute so much more? 

Kimm  0:45  
Domestic violence, in and of itself, is a great area to go through. There's the physical, there's the emotional, and there are a lot of other things that kind of come into it. So you have the legal side of domestic violence, which is the actual, like, physical hitting. It's also the intimidation, putting somebody in fear that they're going to be hit, you know, saying, "I'm going to hit you." I raised my hand, and that person is going to think, "Oh, my gosh, yes, that person is going to hit me." That's all in the domestic violence realm. And the difference between, like, an assault and battery, which is the same exact thing, except for the domestic beat, means that there is a family relationship. It could be parent or child, it could be spouse, could be partner, it could be a person with whom you live, not necessarily in a sexual manner or romantic nature, but somebody you just live with, as part of the statute.

Bob  1:35  
Could it be like a brother-sister thing if you just kind of shared an apartment or something?

Kimm  1:38  
Correct, yep. So that's what brings it into the domestic side of it.

Bob  1:43  
And unfortunately, you always hear about cases where they want to file and they go through the process. And then, oh, two days later, he didn't mean it. Or she said she was sorry. And so now we're a happy family again, and that actually perpetrates more domestic violence, in certain cases. 

Kimm  2:04  
It does, because the violence isn't being addressed, one by the aggressor, and two by the victim. So they always feel the victim tends to feel guilty, like, oh, you know, I don't want to go to jail, it's going to be bad, or there's some financial dependency on the person, the aggressor. So it's like, "Well, if that person goes to jail or I can't be around that person, what am I going to do? So that doesn't help either. So is trying to get the victim more help than the aggressor at that point, because otherwise, that cycle of domestic violence continues.

Bob  2:36  
So when it comes to the point where the victim comes to you and asks for your services, do you try to counsel them a little bit and say, you know, if they start to have a change of heart, if they start to change their mind, do you not try to talk them into it? But Council them and say, "You know, in my expertise and opinion, this isn't going away unless or until you just let them decide." 

Kimm  2:58  
I always try to counsel them to the point of kind of being on the legal and somewhat of the emotional side of it. Because I'm not a counselor, I'm not trained for this, I just know what I see over and over again, and it's the same patterns. So if somebody were to come in, male or female, and say that I'm being abused, you know, if they're coming in for divorce and stuff, I can talk to them about that, what we can do there, but I also tried to kind of guide them to go to an actual formal counselor. You know, you have Domestic Harmony, you have these counselors that deal with the victims, and how to help them break away from this cycle of violence. So that's where for me, that's where I'm trying to push them so that they can get the help they need, not necessarily just to retain me as a lawyer, but ethically and morally, I feel like I have to provide them with additional resources, even if they never retain me, because that's just the right thing to do.

Bob  3:49  
Does the court they'll also instruct them or encourage them to Hey, the first step is counseling. The first step is maybe using Domestic Harmony before we come back for a criminal case, or can you just go straight through the criminal case?

Kimm  4:04  
Well, as far as the victims go, with the court system, they're kind of kind of in a roundabout, they're out of it, because the court system focuses on the aggressor, the defendant in the matter, and trying to help them by saying, "We're going to send you to anger management, we're going to make you do this, we're going to make you do this while you're on probation," or the victim kind of falls to the side because the court technically doesn't have any jurisdiction over that person to make them do anything. Now what some courts do is say okay, they always ask for the no contact order to be dropped because as soon as there is a domestic or some assault crime there, the core is an automatic you can't have contact with me now. So if you, Bob, were to hit me and now there's this aggression. You cannot contact me in any way. Well, me as the victim, because hey, well, you know what, though, I like Bob so much. I want to have contact with him and the court will say, you know, go to Domestic Harmony, go to a counselor, get some safety plans, and then come back and see me, so it's kind of a roundabout way to at least try to get something for them.

Bob  5:03  
Okay, and the police also get involved. So there's that aspect as well, at least at the beginning, correct?

Kimm  5:11  
A lot of times, what happens is the police are initially called because somebody's being hurt or they're scared of being hurt. So the cops arrive, arrest the aggressor, or separate them for the night, or whatever. And then that's how the criminal system comes in. But then you have the victim who's going to recant, saying, that's not what happened. That's not what I meant. I was, you know, I was drinking or I did this and they tried to recant what they were doing. But in Michigan, there is a statute in some circumstances where the police can actually testify to what the victim told them, so it kind of helps curb that as long as the victim can be considered credible. The officer can come in and say, you know, Jane Doe said, they were arguing, you know, John Doe came up, hit her in the eye, did this, did this, and that can be used as evidence against the aggressor.

Bob  5:58  
Well, if you are facing domestic violence, and again, it's not only women, but as you mentioned earlier, it can be a man, and kids can be victims, too. Speaking of kids, if a grandparent or a neighbor or, you know, a teacher or somebody suspects that there's something going on in the house, can they get involved as well, from the standpoint of reporting something?

Kimm  6:19  
Yes, anybody can report incidents of domestic violence if they see it or believe that it's being done. But also, if a teacher or other mandatory reporter comes into play and they think that something is happening, they're bound to be required to call at least CPS and report that there's some abuse that they believe is going on.

Bob  6:39  
Okay, And speaking of calling, if you need to call a lawyer, you can always get in touch with the KB law office here. In Hillsdale she handles these types of cases and wants to make sure that everybody stays safe and stays sound. How do people get in touch with the KB Law Office, Kimm if they'd like more information on your services?

Kimm  6:55  
You can always call the office at 797-6021 or you can visit my website at kburgerlaw.com. 

Bob  7:02  
And we appreciate Kimm joining us today on our conversations with Kimm here on Radio Hillsdale, WCSR.